$500K/Month High-end Home, Kitchen and Bath Products E-commerce Business – Howard Law of Magnus Home Products
INTERVIEW VIDEO (Length – 52:36)
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Howard Law of Magnus Home Products shares the story of building a high-end home, kitchen and bath products e-commerce business from scratch to recreate a small family business experience he and his partner had previously worked for. They started with a drop-ship business model to manage risks and moved to primarily sourcing, warehousing, and fulfilling own products to maximize profit margins and deliver greater value to customers.
Howard Law shares insights into his e-commerce business, Magnus Home Products, which specializes in high-end kitchen and bath products. They offer unique items not found in big box stores, catering to higher-end homes. Law discusses the challenges they faced when starting the business, such as relying on dropshipping and building everything from scratch. They have now transitioned to importing their own products and have a 40,000 square foot facility. Law highlights the importance of marketing and SEO to drive traffic to their website. They differentiate themselves by offering competitive retail prices and prioritize customer service by providing extensive information and a licensed Master Plumber on staff. Law also discusses their marketing strategies, including utilizing social media platforms like Facebook and Pinterest and their decision to withdraw from Amazon due to costs. They are exploring ways to improve their website, such as implementing AR and VR technology. Law emphasizes the importance of customer service and constantly learning about the business. He reflects on two early mistakes and emphasizes the need to invest in professional expertise and marketing. Overall, Law advises aspiring entrepreneurs to be committed and dedicated to their business for long-term success.
- 00:00:00 In this section, Howard Law discusses his e-commerce business, Magnus Home Products, which specializes in unique high-end kitchen and bath products. He explains that they offer items that are not readily available in big box stores, such as statement pieces for higher-end homes. Law and his partner both previously worked for a similar company before deciding to start their own business to recreate a small family business experience. Magnus Home Products is a completely e-commerce business, providing a cohesive and personalized shopping experience online. Law admits that starting the business required a significant capital investment, but they began planning in July 2017 and had an equity partner for financial backing.
- 00:05:00 In this section, Howard Law discusses the challenges they faced when starting their e-commerce business, Magnus Home Products. Initially a dropship company, they had to rely on other companies for their products and had to build everything from scratch, including the website and office space. As the business grew, they eventually transitioned to importing their own products and now have a 40,000 square foot facility. Law highlights the importance of marketing in their growth and mentions that they have worked with multiple marketing companies to better understand their market and increase visibility. Additionally, they are focusing on SEO and utilizing Google ad spend to drive traffic to their website. Overall, Law’s background in sourcing and importing and his partner’s IT expertise have contributed to their success in the e-commerce industry.
- 00:10:00 In this section, Howard discusses the business model of Magnus Home Products, which is a drop shipping business. He explains that both he and his partner had other jobs while building the business, as it was expensive to buy inventory. Howard also talks about the challenges of shipping large items versus small ones and how they have learned about operations and packaging. He mentions that they have over 15,000 SKUs but are now focusing on narrowing their product mix to be more profitable. Howard also emphasizes the advantage of their sourcing background, as it allows them to lower costs and offer better retail prices to consumers. He believes in building relationships with factories and personally visiting them to ensure quality.
- 00:15:00 In this section, Howard Law discusses the value proposition of his business, Magnus Home Products, in a highly competitive market. He mentions that they differentiate themselves by offering aggressive retail prices and even price matching. Additionally, they have a unique advantage of having a full-time licensed Master Plumber on staff who can assist customers with installation questions and specifications. The company prioritizes customer service and aims to provide more information to customers than any other company in the industry. Howard also discusses the challenges of marketing, particularly with Google constantly changing its algorithms, and the need to focus on long-term strategies like SEO to drive customer acquisition.
- 00:20:00 In this section, Howard discusses the various ways they are pushing their e-commerce marketing and looking at new avenues such as Facebook and Pinterest. He also mentions their decision to pull out of Amazon due to the high costs and questionable profitability. When asked about listing their products on Wayfair, they tried it but didn’t have much success as Wayfair wanted to dictate the retail price and their algorithms were inconsistent. Howard also mentions the challenge of returns in their industry, but they have a good returns policy where customers can return items as long as they are in new condition and haven’t been installed.
- 00:25:00 In this section, Howard discusses the challenges of returns and the costs associated with selling products on platforms like Amazon and Wayfair. He explains that these platforms side with the customer and often charge the company for returns, resulting in a loss of profits. Additionally, Howard mentions how he is exploring ways to improve the website, such as utilizing AR and VR technology to provide a more realistic view of products. However, he explains that due to the large number of products and the resources required, they are not currently able to implement these features. Instead, the images on their website are computer-generated.
- 00:30:00 In this section, Howard Law explains how they use virtual photography to showcase their products because traditional photography would be too costly for their small company. They create different views of their products for around $500, whereas a traditional photo shoot could cost thousands of dollars. Their target customers are generally females, 40 years old and above, with disposable income and a desire to decorate their homes. Howard believes that in many marriages, it is the wife who is driving the trend and style decisions. Additionally, Magnus Home Products offers financing options on their website, which has proven to be effective in converting customers.
- 00:35:00 In this section, Howard discusses the use of services to target excellent customers and their impact on converting customers. He mentions that they don’t see a significant number of people using these services, possibly due to their customers being more affluent. However, they do have some who take advantage of it, although it only accounts for a small percentage of their total business. Howard also talks about their fulfillment process, stating that anything over $79 ships for free and they charge actual shipping costs for items under $79. They have a generous return policy where customers can return products within 90 days for full credit, minus return shipping, as long as the product hasn’t been installed or modified. Howard emphasizes the importance of customer service and his firsthand involvement in talking to customers, which has provided him with a better understanding of customer needs and issues. He also mentions how he has learned about operations, designing warehouses, and working on different aspects of the business alongside his partner Mark.
- 00:40:00 In this section, Howard discusses the dynamics of managing a small company and the importance of having a team with diverse skill sets. He mentions that despite the challenges of being an entrepreneur, he is grateful for the opportunities it has provided. Howard admits that he did not have a burning desire to start his own business but acknowledges the rewards and responsibilities that come with it. He shares his long-term vision of potentially passing on the business to his partner’s family and retiring in the near future. Howard emphasizes the importance of enjoying life and not working until his last day.
- 00:45:00 In this section, Howard Law, co-founder of Magnus Home Products, reflects on two mistakes that had a negative impact on the company’s early success. The first was relying on a team of college co-op students for graphic design, which resulted in subpar presentations. Law realizes that hiring a professional graphic designer would have been a better choice. The second mistake was not investing in marketing earlier on and struggling to find the right marketing company. Law believes that the company’s small size initially deterred bigger and better marketing organizations. These mistakes highlight the importance of investing in professional expertise and marketing from the start.
- 00:50:00 In this section, Howard Law discusses the importance of promoting oneself in the e-commerce industry and mentions a co-owner of a company that he left whom he greatly respects and seeks guidance from. He also gives advice to aspiring entrepreneurs, emphasizing the need to be committed and dedicated to their business in order to reap the long-term rewards. Law suggests looking beyond short-term gains and focusing on growing the value of the business for a potential exit in the future. To learn more about Magnus Home Products, Law directs viewers to visit their website, magnusonproducts.com.
People & Resources Mentioned in the Episode
What You’ll Learn
Interview with Howard Law of Magnus Home Products
|[00:00:08] Introduction to Trep Talks with Sushant Misra and guest Howard Law|
|[00:01:00] Howard Law’s motivation and backstory for starting Magnus Home Product|
|[00:02:15] Transition from working at a company to starting their own business|
|[00:03:23] Magnus Home Product as a 100% e-commerce business|
|[00:04:30] Risks and capital investment in the e-commerce business|
|[00:06:00] Challenges faced during the early stages of the business|
|[00:07:24] Expansion and transition to importing their own products|
|[00:08:20] Marketing strategies and the importance of a marketing expert|
|[00:09:49] Balancing jobs and building the business|
|[00:11:09] Shipping challenges and the advantage of sourcing background|
|[00:13:48] Advantages of direct selling from factory to consumer|
|[00:14:10] Competitive pricing and value proposition|
|[00:14:30] Differentiation from other e-commerce businesses|
|[00:14:53] Importance of relationship building with factories|
|[00:15:21] Development of exclusive items based on customer demand|
|[00:15:36] Discussion on importing products from Asia|
|[00:16:00] Primary market focus on the United States|
|[00:16:36] Value proposition and differentiation in a competitive market|
|[00:18:00] Exploring new marketing strategies and channels|
|[00:19:00] Importance of organic traffic and SEO for conversion rates|
|[00:27:00] Building a virtual bathroom and kitchen|
|[00:27:19] Hurdles of creating 360-degree views for products|
|[00:28:00] Using CGI for website images|
|[00:28:33] Starting with real images for VR|
|[00:28:48] Computer-generated images on the website|
|[00:29:20] Creating CGI images: Process and specifications|
|[00:30:00] Cost comparison: CGI vs. traditional photography|
|[00:31:00] Target customer persona: Female, 40+, higher income|
|[00:32:00] Financing options and customer conversion|
|[00:36:00] Shipping, returns, and warehouse operations|
|[00:37:00] Managing a team and personal growth as a leader|
|[00:39:01] Hands-on Experience|
|[00:39:23] Learning Warehouse Design and Operations|
|[00:40:00] Complementary Strengths of the Partners|
|[00:40:30] Importance of Small Company and Team Dynamics|
|[00:41:00] Entrepreneurship and Challenging Experiences|
|[00:42:00] Responsibility and Pressure of Leading a Company|
|[00:43:00] Long-term Vision and Succession Planning|
|[00:45:00] Lessons Learned: Graphic Design and Marketing|
|[00:48:00] Excitement about Virtual Reality and AI|
|[00:49:00] Productivity Tip: Prioritizing Tasks|
In this segment, the guest will answer a few questions quickly in one or two sentences.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products
- Book recommendation that you would make to entrepreneurs or business professionals (Response:)
- An innovative product or idea in the current e-commerce retail or tech landscape that you feel excited about (Response:)
- A business or productivity tool that you would recommend (Response:)
- Another startup or business that you think is currently doing great things: (Response: Palm Beach DYNO)
- A peer entrepreneur or businessperson whom you look up to or someone who inspires you (Response: The Co-owner of the company where he left. This person gave them guidance. Howard has outmost respect for this person, and he learned so much from him.)
- Best business advice you ever received (Response: Ensure that your passion and commitment align with the substantial time and effort required, as the long-term rewards, particularly the growth and value of the business, outweigh any short-term gains.)
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Hey there, entrepreneurs. My name is Sushant and welcome to Trep Talks. This is a show where I interview successful e-commerce entrepreneurs, business executives, and thought leaders, and ask them questions about their business story, and also dive deep into some of the strategies and tactics that they have used to start and grow their businesses.
And today I’m really excited to welcome Howard Law to the show. Howard Law is the co-founder of Magnus Home Product. Magnus is an e-commerce business specializing in unique high-end kitchen and bath products that are Ty typically not found in the big box store. And today I’m Ask Howard, his journey and some strategies tactic used.
Thank you so much joining. Appreciate your time. Welcome. I
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: appreciate it.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Enjoy it. [00:01:00] So, um, interesting business. Uh, it’s an e-commerce business, uh, specializing towards home product. Can you share a little bit about your products and, and then maybe share a little bit about your, your backstory and what really motivated you to start this, uh, business.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Sure. Um, MAG products, we try to specialize in products through the kitchen and bath that aren’t readily available to the general public in big box stores. Um, We try to find things, say like a kitchen sink. Uh, you can typically find, you know, simple standard kitchen sinks in the big box stores. We offer kitchen sinks in a wide range of fire, clay, copper, stainless steel, uh, cast iron.
Um, same thing with like bathroom sinks. We offer such things as petrified sinks, uh, te root sinks, stone, riverstone sinks, uh, onic sinks. [00:02:00] Things that you’re not gonna find in your, your normal store, uh, that are gonna be kinda statement pieces for, uh, a homeowner that has a, a higher end home that’s looking for, you know, the, the next new and great thing to, to really make a statement in their home.
Um, my partner and I. We both worked at a company that sold similar products, and we were there for a number of years and it was a small family business that we helped grow into a medium size or large size, uh, business. And it ultimately was bought out by a huge corporation. Um, we each independently decided that we really, well, we didn’t have a problem with the big company.
We really didn’t want that big. Uh, feeling and we decided to go the route of starting our own and trying to recreate that family experience and family feeling. Um, you know, a small, [00:03:00] cohesive group that everybody’s rowing, uh, in the same way and has the same objectives and not have the politics and things like that that you, you know, end up with, with big companies.
Um, so it was. Uh, you know, something we were familiar with, but, uh, we felt like there was a, a piece that we could get, uh, in that market.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: And so your business is completely e-commerce, right? Or do you also have, cause you’re talking about that home, uh, home business kind, uh, small, uh, business kind a feeling, are you able to provide that through the e-commerce channel itself, or do you have like a retail
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: store?
No, we’re a hundred percent e-commerce.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Okay. So, I mean, it’s, it’s very interesting. You know, I, when I talk to, uh, e-commerce business owners, uh, on their backstory and, uh, um, and, and usually, um, I come across people who, who get like a new [00:04:00] idea and they start a business. But definitely the route of, you know, having a career, uh, in a.
Learning about the business and then taking that idea and all the knowledge that you have, I think that’s definitely a, um, an interesting way of starting a business. I mean, when did you start this business and did you feel that, you know, this was a risky way because I’m assuming that this kind of a business would require a significant capital investment.
Did you feel like, you know, that could be a risk, uh,
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: when you. Yeah, we, uh, we first started planning about July of 2017, and initially we had a third partner who was an equity partner, um, who wasn’t actively involved in the, the business, but was a, you know, financial backing. Um, that individual, you know, really was still envisioning the early [00:05:00] 1990.
Of e-commerce where you invested a very little money and you reaped huge rewards. Um, you know, it’s a different playing field now. There’s so many more people out there. Um, so eventually he decided this wasn’t the type of thing for him, so Mark and I bought him out. Um, but yeah, it, it, it was, you know, a, a super challenge because you’re starting from ground zero.
And, you know, we initially started out as a hundred percent drop shit company. Um, so we were dependent upon other companies for all of our product and, you know, again, starting from ground zero, you know, we had zero images. We had, you know, nothing. We had to create the website. Um, we had to, you know, source the products.
Uh, you know, again, we had never been involved in this. My background is sourcing, importing, purchasing, marketing. My business partner is an it. Um, you know, even just simple things like [00:06:00] the first time we had to get a lease for, uh, an office based, neither of us had ever been involved with a commercial office lease.
Um, you know, buying the office furniture, et cetera, et cetera, you know, uh, creating a staff to build the website. You know, like I said, we first, our first meetings were in July of 2017. We turned the website on in November of 2017, so we felt like it was fairly quick. And the first two years, we stayed a hundred percent drop ship and we could see changes in industry and suppliers and things like that.
Um, that being a hundred percent drop ship caused us a lot of issues of out-of-stock product, things like that. We weren’t really able to control or destiny, so we decided to move into a new location and start it with a small 10,000 square foot. W. And started importing some products, some of the key products that, um, [00:07:00] that we, you know, that were our best sellers.
We got, we could hold about 20 containers of product in that warehouse. And that warehouse lasted us, say a year, year and a half. And then we outgrew it and, uh, we moved again into the facility we’re in now. We’ve got about a 40,000 square foot facility and it’s allowed us to greatly expand on what we’re doing.
Um, you know, just for three years ago, a hundred percent drop ship to now 90% of our product is, uh, our own source product and imported product. Uh, so, you know, quite a directional change and, um, you know, allows us more freedom in choosing the products and, um, you know, better profit margins when you’re the ones in import.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: So your background was in sourcing, your partner’s background was in it, but it seems like your business has been growing year over year quite rapidly. [00:08:00] Uh, I mean, is that, um, is there someone who’s, uh, doing marketing or is this really just the, the fact that you are putting. Really unique kind of products and there’s, you know, these are high end products that, that have certain demand and people are naturally searching for these items and they’re coming to buy it.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: No, I mean the, you know, the landscape has changed so much. There’s so many players now in the industries. Um, you know, we’re now on, it’s one of the biggest challenges we’ve had is marketing because neither my partner nor myself are experts in it. Um, we’re with our third marketing company now. And we really finally felt, we’ve been with him for a couple years, really feel like he was one of the key pieces that we were missing.
He truly understands our market, our products, and, you know, what needs to be done. You know, he’s, he’s working with all the Google ad spend, um, and [00:09:00] he’s working with the. SEO that is extremely important. You know, we’ve gotta start getting back links and things like that and getting the, the free people, people to our website free without having to pay Google.
Um, because Google keeps getting more and more expensive and more and more challenging. Um, so we work very closely with him. We’re now doing some other things with people doing c r o for us. Um, my partner Mark, uh, being that he has an IT background, he kind of really gets into some of this stuff with related to.
The, the marketing aspect, the, the more technical stuff and he’s getting into like page layout and things like that. Um, and, and learning more and more about that. Awesome.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Um, I mean, going back to that risk question, when you started this business, like, did you quit your jobs and you went hundred percent or, you know, while the business were still, [00:10:00] while you were, you know, launching it and it was a drop shipping business model, was it, um, you know, were you like on two boards, you know, still have your jobs while, you know, building
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: this?
Um, I, I had a, a another job until. Six months ago, uh, to Okay. Supplement income. Um, you know, and my partner Mark, um, he had a, a, a, a full-time thing also, or another paid thing until not too long ago to help supplement. Um, because as you said, it’s, it’s very expensive. And, um, especially when you’re buying inventory and, and.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Um, when you look back, do you think that this was the right category to get into? I mean, I know that both of you had the background in this, but if you think about like e-commerce businesses that tend to be, tend to work really [00:11:00] well for like small items that are easily to ship and things like that. I mean, I’m assuming like shipping a big bot stub is, is a, is a herculean task.
I mean, you
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: know, Well, you know what’s interesting and, and again, you know, that wasn’t my background, but the operations, I’ve gotten heavily involved in that. I’ve now designed three warehouses and I know more about forklifts and pickers than I ever really wanted to know about ’em. But, uh, you know, we’ve had to learn about.
Phone packing machines and the paper machines and, you know, and, and packaging and, you know, meeting with FedEx and the, the freight carriers. And surprisingly enough, a bathtub is probably the easiest thing to ship. It’s pre-packaged from the, the factory. It’s in the box. Literally. All we have to do is put, put it on a pallet and put a label on it and it goes out the door versus something smaller, like say a, a pedestal.
Pedestal sink comes in its box. We now have to have our [00:12:00] foam or injection foam machine put foam around it or pack around paper around it and, and pack it. Another box. We probably spend 20 minutes packing a, a, a pedestal sink, whereas, you know, the, the bathtub was, is all machine, you know, with a, a forklift and it, it, it goes out actually very quickly.
Um, so it, it is interesting, um, you know, product. Um, we tried to swing for the fence and have a lot of different, we’ve got over 15,000 SKUs and, you know, we we’re always trying to reimagine ourself and look at what we can do better and we are starting to cut back on some of the categories that are less profitable and, uh, you know, we see less return on and becoming a little more narrowly focused instead of trying to have everything for everybody in that, you know, category that we.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: So I’m, I’m assuming that in this kind of a business, it’s a huge advantage to have the sourcing background. [00:13:00] Cause without that, I mean, you wouldn’t be able to manage inventory and cost without knowing what’s, what’s, uh, what’s needed in the market. What’s, what’s the demand for, um, I mean, how, how important or how advantageous do you think your background has been in, in starting or building
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: this.
Well, I think it’s, it’s huge. Two twofold. Um, one, if you’re looking at the cost aspect, um, you know, the landed costs of me buying, you know, again, just using bathtubs as an example. Uh, my landed costs that I pay is one half or one third of what I would be paying someone here in the United States if I was buying it from a drop.
So I’m putting those profits in my pocket. It also allows me, since I’m, when we’re selling to the consumer, it’s going from the factory to me to the consumer. We’re taking out a couple steps. We’re [00:14:00] able to offer a better retail price and a better value to the consumer for the same product. You know, I, I know, you know, again, I’ve worked with these factories for 20 years.
I see these products and they are the exact same product that some of the major brands in the United States are selling, you know, 3, 4, 5 times what I’m selling ’em for. And it’s identical product, just doesn’t have their brand name on it. Hmm. And so the consumers can get a, a great value working with someone like ourselves.
And there’s a lot of people in our industry that are out there in e-commerce, but the vast majority are not importing the. They’re just drop shipping, so their retail prices are gonna be higher or their margins are very slim. Um, you know, so that, that aspect is great. And then the other side of it with me, I’m, I’m, I feel very strongly about relationship building with my factories.
I’ve been in every single factory that we ever buy from. I, I believe in boots in the ground, knowing the [00:15:00] owners of the factory. You know, you become friends, you become partner. In the business, um, they feel like they’re vested in it. And also, you know, I am on the ground. I’m seeing the new products, the new trends, um, again, which is so important for us that I’m not just doing the cookie cutter Me too things.
Uh, We have a, a number of exclusive items that we’ve developed and that, um, have manufactured for us. Um, you know, based on years of experience and customer demand, we listen to our customers what they need. And I’m assuming
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: these factories, um, the products where you’re sorting from are, are in Asia, in China, uh, in those countries.
And that, that gives you a little bit of an advantage also in terms of cost.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Um, yeah. I mean, I, I, I import from Asia, I import from Europe, um, you know, um, the Middle East, uh, we’re, we’re we, we [00:16:00] import from probably, you know, eight, 10 countries. But the, the vast majority right now is
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Asia. And, and your, your primary markets are mostly North America or just us?
Us. Mm-hmm. US only. Okay. Okay. Um, I mean, you, you mentioned a little bit about competition and, you know, the market becoming highly competitive. You, you, you know, Similar kind of products available in the market. Um, and you also mentioned that you have a little bit of a differentiation in terms of pricing because you know you’re working directly with factories.
What is, I mean, what would you say is your value proposition, uh, right now in the current, uh, market, which is competitive and so forth? So why, why does a customer come to. Store versus like any other store who may be maybe working with the same factories and, and getting the same kinda products.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Right.
Again, I [00:17:00] uh, we try to be very aggressive on our retail prices. Um, and if someone does have, uh, a better price, we do price matching if for the same, you know, product if it appears to be the same. Um, some of the other things that we’ve done to differentiate ourself, we are the only company in our. That has a full-time licensed master plumber on staff.
Any customer that calls up that has a question on how do I install this, what do I do with this, what does this, do you know what’s the spec for this? Our guy, he’s worked in this industry for over 20 years himself. He’s a master plumber. He is been in the bi plumbing industry for 40 years. There is no other company out there that’s doing this.
And you know, we’re a small company. For us, customer service is paramount. You know, we want to be treated as if we were calling and it was us. And so we’ve got more information available to these customers than anybody out there. [00:18:00] Awesome.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: I mean, while, while talking about it, a business idea that I think may go well with your business of, um, a marketplace of plumbers who are experts at installing your products, which are.
So, you know, different plumbers can come and add their name to the directory and in a way, you know, they become experts in, in selling your product so that, you know, it’s kinda like, and you can charge them for, you know, something I guess, or something. Um, alright. Um, so,
What has worked in terms of a customer acquisition since the beginning? Like when you were getting customer ac, I mean, I know you mentioned a little bit around, uh, Google and ads and so forth. Of course, you know, in, in, you know, marketing is changing so rapidly and now with AI coming into the picture right, I’m sure it’s going to change so much more in the.[00:19:00]
Three to two to three years. Um, how do you see about, like, are you the one ma managing, uh, or looking after the ma the marketing? I know you, you mentioned like a marketing agency, but like, uh, in terms of just managing the spend and, and so forth. Um, and what are your thoughts on, you know, what’s working, what’s not working and what, how do you see the future?
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Yeah, I mean, You know, Google keeps it as a constantly moving target. Um, and you know, it, it’s extremely expensive with Google and you know, we’re trying to focus now on, you know, the longer term things like the seo because you know, And, and you know, that takes multiple years to really develop that. And we’re really just, we’re, we’re into psych year number two.
Now we’ve gotta get more people. When we look at our [00:20:00] conversion rates, the conversion rates are so much better for the people that are coming in organically. Um, they, it, it, it’s, it’s, it blows my mind how much better. Um, so we’re pushing in a lot of different ways. We’re looking at a lot of new things.
With that and, uh, and new and new additional companies because, you know, there’s so many different aspects of e-commerce marketing. Um, you know, it’s not just the Google spend or just the seo. There’s so many different ways you can dice it up. Um, you know, we’ve talked to people about redeveloping our website, um, that, you know, potentially could cause a better, um, uh, turnover that, uh, on, on customers purchasing.
We’re looking at, um, we’ve not really done much spend outside of Google. We’re, uh, right now actively looking at, um, working with like Facebook and Pinterest and we feel for our particular market. Pinterest is probably a really strong, [00:21:00] uh, source for us because there’s so many people that are looking for ideas on how to do a remodel and they’re looking.
Pinterest is generally looking for unique things, you know, they’re not looking for. The bathtub that they can get at the big box store or the sink thing. They’re looking for the, the, you know, the, the, the old time, 18 hundreds, uh, cast iron sink out of a kitchen and they can put in their bathroom and they’re at looking, you know, for other people’s ideas and how they’ve done it and where those resources are.
So we think that’s gonna be an exciting, uh, area for us. Um, one thing we learned, at least for us, It was not a good spend on marketing. Um, we used to advertise fairly heavily on Amazon and market our problem product there, we finally elected to pull out of Amazon. Totally. Uh, it, uh, it’s extremely expensive, the [00:22:00] the market products on Amazon.
And I, I honestly, I, I question. How, how people do make money with it. But, um, that was something we elected to, to walk away from.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: I wonder, I mean, the answer of, for that question, maybe that, um, maybe some categories of products work better are on Amazon versus other, um, maybe more, more of the smaller and commodity type thing.
Um, and, and that brings me to, to the second question. Do you, uh, I, I would assume that the big behemoth in this category is a Wayfair, right? Um, do you list your products on Wayfair or they’re like a competitor?
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: No. We’ve tried a few things on Wayfair and honestly didn’t have a lot of success. And, you know, they want, at the time, at least when we were working with them, they want to dictate the retail price and.
You know, they’re generally undercutting you. [00:23:00] Um, cause they were run on really slim margins apparently. Um, their algorithms were strange. One week it’ll be a real low price and then the next week it jumps up. Um, you know, so we just didn’t see where that was really being beneficial to us. Um, we tried that early on and uh, decided not to
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: continue with that.
It’s a big challenge in this category. Around the fact, and you know, why Wayfair is doing really well, is that, you know, if you have a only have an e-commerce business where, where a customer is looking at, at, let’s say a bathtub or a faucet or something, you know, they, they looked at the pictures and they made a purchase.
Um, then, you know, when the product arrived, you know, and they, they’re trying to install it and maybe they say, okay, this doesn’t look really good on, in this room. Or, you know, uh, this is not fit for my needs or something and they want to return the item. Uh, I think Wayfair probably [00:24:00] makes it really easier.
I mean, I think their model is easy returns. Maybe even a lot of the time they just say, keep the item and they’ll, they’ll refund the money because, you know, and that, that, that’s probably one of the reasons of their 10 margins and so forth. Um, I mean, is that, do you, do you find that to be a challenge for your business also, where, you know, you find that the customer want to see this kind of product in person before making a purchase?
Or do you, uh, allow a really good returns, uh, policy
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: and things like that? I mean, if, if someone purchased something, even a bathtub and they get it and they decide they don’t want it, as long as it’s in like new conditions and has not been installed, they can return it. They just pay for the return shipping.
Uh, the shipping, our outbound shipping to the customer is included in our retail price. So, and up to that point, they haven’t paid anything for, you know, extra for the shipping. So if they do elect to return it, Um, [00:25:00] you know, then that, that’s fine as long as it comes back, you know, in like new condition and, uh, they pay return shipping.
And again, that’s the same thing with Wayfair and Amazon both. That is a challenge. You know, Amazon and Wayfair are not eating those costs. If they do, if, and they tell the person to keep it, they charge the company so they want, they’re charging me back. So I lose a hundred percent. And that’s, you know, besides the cost and the marketing and.
You have to have a, add a substantial amount of, uh, percentage of money on your sales that are gonna be just lost product. Because, you know, those, those type of companies, Amazon, Wayfair, net, they elect to side with the customer always and just give the stuff away, and then they charge you back regardless.
And you, you have nothing to show for it. So you, you know, especially if you’re selling expensive items. Um, you know, it, it can become [00:26:00] very, very costly to you, so you have to be very careful.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Um, I mean, I, I know you did mention a little bit around that you’re exploring ways to improve the website or, you know, the technology around the website in this category.
I think there’s a lot of, um, different retailers and I think maybe we wafer also that are kind of now trying to utilize to, to, in order to overcome this challenge of. How to give the customer a more realistic view of the product. You know, things like AR and VR and these kinda things. Um, are you, are you thinking about something around those, those lines, or are you thinking about more like personalizing the, the shopping experience or things like that to make it easy for customers to find
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: delight?
Yeah. Um, the, the, the, the, the A I R vr, um, I was at a trade fair just two weeks ago, and I was talking to a company in Germany about exactly that. [00:27:00] One of the things that we would love to be able to do at some point is for the customer to take and be able to build their bathroom online, choose the, you know, the wall coverings, the floor finishes, and then place our products in the, in the, in the bathroom or the kitchen and you know, get an idea what it would look like.
Unfortunately, the hurdle. I have, like with our website, we have 15,000 SKUs. Well, for every image right now, like if you’re doing a bathtub, you have to have 360 degree views of that bathtub. Well, I can’t, I don’t have the resources to pull 15,000 products out of inventory. And take images, you know, a 360 degree image of every product.
It’s, it’s, you know, impossible. Especially if we’re a small company. You know, if you have 20 products, that’s one thing, but you know, we have thousands and you know, and you have to build this library [00:28:00] of all these different products to do that. That’s my understanding at this point in time. Um, You know, so we’re, we’re not right there.
We’re not there yet. And actually all the images on our website are all cgi. We actually don’t have real photos on our website. You know, it’s all computer generated. So we don’t even have a starting point for the, the, the VR stuff. Um, because you know, at least the discussions I’ve had, you have to start with something, you know, real for ’em to go.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Wow, that’s really interesting. So, for example, I’m on your website right now and I’m looking at this telephone hand shower with porcelain handle. So you’re saying that this image that’s on the site is not a real image. This is computer generated, uh,
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: 90, I’d say 95% of the pro. The photos on our website are images on our website are cgi.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: And how, how does that work? Like, I mean, I, I [00:29:00] don’t understand what, how, how this image would be created. So somebody said, somebody, somebody, a graphic graphic designer creates this, or how
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: does that work? We have an outside company, uh, out of, uh, Seattle that we work with, and we have to take some basic photos or where the manufacturer takes some basic, basic photos just with a cell phone.
You know, overhead view, a front view, a side view, an angled view, about five or six different views. And then we have to send him, uh, you know, drawings that have specifications on it so that he has, he knows proportions. And sometimes we’ve gotta take closeup images of a texture or a surface. Sometimes we’ve sent him like samples of pieces of copper for like our copper sinks and bathtubs that have a hammered finish so he can actually see what it looks like.
Um, some of it’s more challenging than others. I mean, some of it’s pretty straightforward. Um, you know, and he builds rooms. He has like a, you know, a portfolio of [00:30:00] rooms now and he’ll pick, you know, room number three to put this bathtub in, and then he makes it look different by different, you know, wall finishes and floor finishes and window placement and, you know, accessories and things like that.
You know, and it’s pretty, pretty neat cuz he can change the angle and, you know, like, ah, you’re not up high enough and he can just go in there and hit the computer and change the angle and things like that. It, it, it really is kind of neat because again, accompany my size, I could never afford to do the photography.
I mean, one, you have to have, you’d have to have a full-time staff of, you know, a couple photographers, a photography assistant. I have to have a photo studio and then you’re gonna have to build. For kitchens and bathrooms. I mean, and I’ve been involved in that. Uh, I was involved in that part of it for many years, uh, managing that and, you know, that was, you know, that’d be millions and millions of dollars in the time too.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Wow. That’s, that’s, [00:31:00] that’s, excuse me. So amazing because I would’ve never guessed that these are not real quotas, to be honest. They look so realistic and, and I, I guess, you know, then the other question, I’m also thinking, I mean, you, you’re saying they’re taking photographs is, is more expensive. But I would, I would’ve thought, you know, creating CGI would be expensive.
Like what is the cost associated with creating like one of, uh, uh, images for like one
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: product? Um, we do usually like five or six views. Uh, we have a beauty shot and five or six other views and you’re, you’re below $500.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Okay, so I mean, still a significant cost. I mean, 500. But
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: if I, if I did a, if I did a photo shoot with a bathtub, you know, I’ve got the time to un unpack it.
I gotta have, build a room setting. I gotta have a photographer. I gotta have somebody clean it and get it all prepped. When you get done, you have to take it and put it back, put it back in inventory. You, you’ve got two, three, [00:32:00] $4,000 invested in that photo. Easily. So it’s a huge savings.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Okay. Well that, that’s, uh, that’s really amazing.
Um, what have you, so these products that you said said previously, you know, are more of statement pieces, they’re more high end, um, or, or more targeted high end customers. What have you learned about your customers so far? Um, Are there, is there like a specific customer persona that you have recognized that, that comes to your, uh, specific kinda, uh, website as opposed to going just to like, uh, you know, home hardware or something like that?
Um, and yeah. What, what have you learned about your
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: customer? Um, yeah, our, I mean, our target customer is, Generally a female, 40 [00:33:00] plus years old, uh, higher income, you know, obviously a homeowner and they’ve got discretionary income and you know, it’s somebody, you know that they, you know, they, they may or may not have gotten the kids out of the house now and it’s time for them to, you know, really, you know, deck the house out nice the way they’ve always wanted it since the kids aren’t there destroying.
Uh, you know, that type of thing. They, they’ve got the, the, the discretionary income. Now, you know, it’s not a, the first person with their first starter home, um, cuz that that person that’s doing a rehab on that, you know, they, they’re conscious of their, their budget. So they are going to the big box store and getting an economical, you know, bathtub or faucet or, you know, whatever they’re going for.
The, the builder grade quality, not, you know, something that’s a, a little more affluent or.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: So that’s, that’s very interesting. So it’s, uh, female rather than, so do you think that male, uh, a male customer would, you know, [00:34:00] just get their truck and go drive to their local home
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: hardware and make a purchase? I mean, I, I think, I think in most marriages, um, I think the wife a lot of time is one driving this, the trend and style.
Um, you know, my wife tells me she wants to do something. You know, the new colors on the wall or whatever, I’m, you know, I’m, I’m gonna follow her lead. And you know, I think that’s a, a, a generalization, but I think that’s, especially in that age group that, that that’s what you know happening. Okay.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Um, I know on your website you are offering, um, financing or the buy now pay later platform, um, through a firm.
Um, can you share a little bit about how. How well it works in terms of conversion. Like, are there a, a significant group of customers that do like to use these kind [00:35:00] of services given that, you know, you’re targeting excellent customers still? Um, and do you see that this, this helps your business in terms of, uh, actually
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: converting up work?
Honestly, we don’t see a huge amount of people using. Um, and again, I think it is because of being a little more affluent, um, you know, we certainly have some people that take advantage of it. Um, but it, it’s, it’s a very small percentage of our total business that, uh, does, does use that. Okay.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Um, I want to talk a little bit about your.
Fulfillment processor that, uh, I know you mentioned you have warehouses where you warehousing all these products. Uh, in terms of shipping, I think you mentioned a little bit around working with, uh, companies and FedEx and so forth. Um, can you talk a little bit about, you know, what you know. The whole operations around [00:36:00] that, what your shipping looks like.
Do you charge your customers for shipping or is it like, do you have certain policies around that? And also around like your returns policies and so forth. And um,
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: yeah. Um, anything that’s over $79 ships for free. Uh, anything $9 or less, we just charged the actual shipping. That were charged and we get a lot better FedEx rate than a consumer walking on the street would get.
Uh, so it is a discounted rate, but anything over 70, $90, uh, shipping to the customer is included, uh, including all the motor freight items. Um, if someone decides they don’t like a product within 90 days, they can return it for full credit. Minus return shipping as long as it has not been installed or modified.
Uh, so we try to keep that, you know, pretty open, uh, for them. And, [00:37:00] you know, we’ll send them the, we send ’em the shipping labels. So all they gotta do is keep the original packing and put it back in there and, uh, get it back to us. And as soon as we get it back and inspect it, we turn it around, it’s suddenly from the time it gets to our warehouse a day or two, and they, they get their,
Can you share a
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: little bit about your team and what has been, has there been any different, given that you’re coming from a corporate background, and, I dunno, maybe you were a manager, like managing a team of people, but, uh, now that you know, you, you probably have, have a team of people working for you, what, how.
How, how, how are you managing people and has it changed? Like have you experienced some sort of your own personal growth, uh, as being the leader of the company, uh, worth it, you know, previously working for, for a corporation
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: or, or a business? Right. Well, you [00:38:00] know, in the past I was, Focused primarily, you know, on again, sourcing and purchasing.
Um, so I really could care less. I didn’t care about operations and how it integrated or accounting or, you know, any of that. That didn’t, didn’t really matter cuz it didn’t affect me on a personal level. Um, so it has been a huge eye-opening experience. Um, you know, as I had said earlier, We got our first office and you know, I’m negotiating a office lease and it, I had no idea what the terms even meant.
Um, you know, same thing with like healthcare. I, I manage our health company healthcare. I had never been involved in that. And that’s, that’s horrible. I have no do that. And um, you know, but it was quite a learning experience. Um, you. I, I, I now get know customer service. I kind of help, help them and give them direction, [00:39:00] uh, on what they’re doing.
And, um, that’s been really good cuz I actually do hands-on, I get on phone calls and talk to customers and really get a better feeling of what the customers want and what the customer issues are. Uh, so that’s been eye-opening. You know, as far as operations, again, for myself. I’ve now designed three warehouses.
I had no, I knew nothing about racking before this, and I didn’t really wanna know anything about racking and, you know, I, I, I designed the, the, the, the layouts and we, you know, purchased the, the, all the equipment for out there. And, uh, you know, so that’s been eye-opening and, and it’s, it, you know, it’s a great learning experience and you know, now I understand how all the pieces fit together and.
You know, my partner Mark, he, he works a lot with like, you know, again, the, uh, technical part of all the marketing, and he handles the accounting and, uh, the it, uh, aspects of the business. So [00:40:00] we each have our own strengths and weaknesses and we kind of compliment each other. And, um, you know, that part’s worked out really well.
Um, but you know, Having these different people with the different skill sets, it’s still, you know, managing the people. At the end of the day, it’s regardless of what department they’re in, that all still ends up being, you know, pretty much the same. Um, and uh, it, it’s, the positive thing about having a small company is everybody knows that they are important.
They’re integral part of it, you know, and it is a family and we’re all working for the same common goals. So you get less, uh, issues. I. Uh, than you typically would have.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Do you? Uh, I mean, given that, you know, there’s always this, uh, some people debate, you know, entrepreneurs are born versus made. And for me, to me it seems like you are definitely more on the, you know, made side.
So it’s almost like, you know, as you’re describing it, you [00:41:00] had to figure out, I mean, I guess everybody has to figure out as, as they go, um, And, and, and also entrepreneurship is very, very challenging. I mean, growing, starting your own business, like, do you think, would you say that it was a really challenging experience?
Uh, or, or was it, you know, you would say it was smooth sailing given that, you know, you had a lot of experience sourcing products, product.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Nah, I, I would definitely say it’s not for the faint of, And I, I agree with you that there’s people that are born entrepreneurs and then others that it’s kind of thrust upon them.
And, uh, I agree with you. I’m on the ladder. Um, I personally, and I know a lot of people that they have a burning desire. They always want it to be their own boss and have their own company and do their own thing and, you know, live their vision. And I, I, I personally never had that burning desire. Uh, you know, it was kind of, uh, out of [00:42:00] necess.
And, um, I’m, I’m happy I’ve had this journey and had the opportunities, but, uh, again, I, it’s not necessarily for the faint part. Um, there, there’s, you know, there’s, there’s great rewards and great challenges. Um, you know, you personally, I never in the past had, you know, the pressures. You got all these people and all these families.
That, you know, depend on you and, you know, they depend on the company to be successful. And at the end of the day, you know, it, it, it falls on your shoulders. Um, you know, when I was just an officer in a company, if the company had folded it, you know, that wasn’t, you know, my fault and I didn’t, all the employees that they lost their jobs, you know, and it, it, so it is, that part’s very challenging.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: I mean, you, you’ve mentioned that you definitely enjoy the feeling of a small family, kind of a business. What is your vision for your business, [00:43:00] let’s say five, 10 years down the road? Do you still want to keep it more of a family kind of a feel or your goal is really to, to grow your business to, to make it like a
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: much, much larger.
Um, well, you know, I think everybody wants to grow their business, you know, sales dollars wise cuz it benefits you personally, you know, when it’s your own company. Um, you know, my long term I, my long term goals are, you know, I, I don’t have that many more years until I retire. Uh, my partner Mark has. Has several children, um, you know, we’ve discussed maybe that he’ll end up purchasing my portion of it and it can be handed down from him into his family and, you know, bring his, his kids into it.
That they’re, they’re coming of age now to get out in the workforce and things like that. And we’ve had one of his sons, actually two of us, one of his sons worked for us full-time for a couple years. Another one did some consulting for us on IT [00:44:00] projects. And, you know, I think that would be incredible if they were able to do that and continue it on, uh, you know, to the next generation, you know, as it continues to grow.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: I mean, that’s, that’s very interesting that, you know, it’s like once you retire, you, you want to sell your share and I guess you want to go on a beat and. Relax. Uh, you, I mean, that’s, that usually, usually, I mean, that’s very different than usually like, entrepreneurs wanna keep control of their business and things like that.
But, uh, I’m assuming you don’t, I’m assuming you don’t have any children.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Uh, I, I’ve got one daughter, but, uh, she’s got her own career and, uh, she’s successful in what she’s doing. And, you know, life’s too short. I, I, I don’t wanna work until my last day here. I want to be able to enjoy.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Definitely, definitely.
So in every entrepreneur’s journey, there’s always mistakes made, lessons learned, uh, in the [00:45:00] business building process. Uh, what has been your biggest mistake or lesson learned or or failure that, you know, you learned something out of? And what can other entrepreneurs learn from your, uh, from that experience?
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: We had two things that probably really hurt us, uh, more early on. Uh, one, when we first started one, it was kind of a kinda a cost saving measure, but also we thought this would be a really good opportunity. Our initial graphic design team was for college co-op students in, in hindsight, I mean, and they, they worked very hard and they all learned quite a bit on the job experience, but it was at our, our expense.
Mm-hmm. So, um, I should have brought on at least one full-time [00:46:00] professional graphic designer to maybe lead them a little bit more. Um, so our initial. Showings, and that was before we were doing cgi. We were dependent more on manufacturer’s artwork and we were having to create, uh, artwork and Photoshop and things like that.
And it was not, it was not the best presentations. And, you know, I think that hurt us a bit early on. Um, and then the other aspect I would say is that, You know, we should have moved on with the marketing companies. Like I said, we’re in our third marketing company now. It would’ve been nice if we were where we’re at now four years ago.
Um, we had to struggle and part of that was just the size of the company. Um, most bigger and better marketing organizations won’t deal with a small new startup. And that, you [00:47:00] know, that hurt us. Initially because we didn’t have the best and brightest, um, you know, working with us and, you know, so, you know, we wish we had invested more in the marketing earlier on.
Oh, very, very interesting.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Okay. Um, I guess, uh, I mean part of the, that reason may also be that, you know, when you’re small, you’re a little bit more risk over it. Right? So you don’t want, maybe you don’t wanna spend like a big chunk of your budget on toward marketing.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Yeah. And, you know, for e-commerce, that’s, that’s your, you know, it can be a more, more, you spend more on marketing than you do on product.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Definitely. So now segment, segment. I’m few quick questions or two words or a sentence. So I’ll skip the book question. So, An innovative product or idea in the current [00:48:00] e-commerce retail or tech landscape that you feel excited about?
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Um, we kinda hit on it before the virtual reality.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Okay. Do you think about, I mean, are you, are you keeping in, in line with any of the new things with the AI or chat gt, any of that or
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: that kind of like, you know, um, you know, we’re keeping an eye on it.
Um, again, we’re so small that, you know, again, cost and all.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Uh, a business or productivity tool or software that you would recommend or a productivity tip? Um,
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: honestly I couldn’t really answer that cause I’m not the it side of our business. I’m lucky to be able to. Well,
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: I mean, as, as a ceo, like, do you have any productivity tests? Like how, what, how, I’m sure you have to do things in order to be productive. Like what’s, what’s your, uh, what would, what recommendation you would [00:49:00] do give to a new entrepreneur to be more productive and get more done?
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Um, well, I mean, I’ve always felt that, you know, you, when you come in in the morning, you always. A list of tasks is a mile long. I always try to take care of the small, simple tasks instead of handling the big task. If I get rid of all the small tasks, then it seems like there’s more time for the big task.
So you need to prioritize,
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: uh, a startup or business, uh, an e-commerce, retail or tech that you think is currently doing great things. So any, any different business that’s doing that you think is doing great things? Um,
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: there’s a company that. I’m familiar with a bit. It’s called Palm Beach DYNO. Really neat company out of Florida.
They kind of specialize in, uh, high performance mustangs and they’re so many different things with social media and they’re product offering and product development. They, [00:50:00] they really got their act together and really doing some neat things in that. Okay. Do you, do you drive Ang or No? No. Um, just, you know, I’m familiar with these people and they, they, you know, and they’re out on the weekends with drag racing nationally and using their own product.
And, um, they, they do a lot of good things, uh, especially social media and things like that. They’re, they’re doing a really nice job of, you know, promote themselves, which is so important, you know, with e-commerce. Definitely,
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: uh, a peer entrepreneur or business person whom you look up to or someone who inspires you?
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Um, the man that was the co-owner of the company that I left, um, I have the utmost respect for him, um, and I learned so much over the years from him. And, uh, you. I’m fortunate that [00:51:00] he’s still in this area and able to go speak to him when, you know, we have questions and don’t know the answer. And, uh, he gives us guidance.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: that’s really awesome. Um, and final question, best business advice you ever received or you would give to entrepreneur?
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Um, Make sure this is something that you want to be able to do and you know, cuz you’re gonna be devoting a lot of your life to it. Um, and a lot of your free, your free time.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: the rewards definitely. You think the rewards are worth it.
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: There’s, there’s risk and reward and, you know, the rewards can be great. Um, and you can’t look at short-term. You’ve gotta look at long-term, you know, more, not necessarily what you’re getting outta the business today, but as you grow the business 10 years from now, if you decide to exit, it’s the value of the business, um, that you’re really trying to grow.
Cause that’s gonna be your big reward. [00:52:00] Definitely.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Well, Howard, uh, those were all the questions that I had, uh, really enjoyed talking to you. Thank you so much for your time Again, uh, if anybody wants to, uh, check out your products, what’s the best way they can do that?
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: Uh, they can go online to, uh, magnus home products.com and see everything we have.
Sushant Misra of TrepTalks: Well, thank you so much again for your time today, for sharing your story, for sharing some business advice and, uh, yeah, appreciated your time and thank you again, and you,
Howard Law of Magnus Home Products: thanks so appreciate.
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